Edited and re-posted. While I am not a part of the Roman Catholic church, I have many friends who are. I have often railed against that church, but that is not my intent here- at least it is not my intent to debate doctrines such as sola scriptura, sola fide, etc.
My intent here is to call out Rome on its blatant hypocrisy, and on what appears to be open and blatant hypocrisy on the part of the Pope.
(h/t Triablogue)
Pelosi and Biden received communion from the Roman Catholic church.
Let me restate that. Pelosi and Biden, who publicly and blatantly flaunt the teachings of their church, who are unrepentant and sometimes jubilant supporters of genocide, were given communion by the Roman Catholic church.
There is no getting around this.
There is no excuse for it.
Pelosi and Biden, both jubilant and proud defenders of our modern holocaust, were permitted to take communion, in spite of the Catholic church's teaching and stance.
Let me ask this- If Hitler were alive immediately following WW2, or if Stalin were to have asked for communion, both maintaining that their slaughters were not sinful, and that these holocausts were righteous, would they be allowed communion?
If your views on communion for Hitler and Stalin are different than your views on communion for Pelosi and Biden, it just might be that you don't consider "abortion" murder in any meaningful sense.
America puts Hitler and Stalin to shame. Pelosi and Biden are proud of their parts in this holocaust.
Are there shades of the Reichskonkordat to be seen here?
That wasn't quite fair...
Or was it?
Hitler was not fully known at the time.
Pelosi and Biden are.
Their holocaust in on display for the entire world to see.
Hitler's victims get museums and memorials.
Even the Holodomor and the Arminian genocides are recognized for what they are.
The victims of the ongoing genocide get nothing- political wrangling, some pronouncements, and eventually they are incinerated as medical waste.
O-V-E-N-S.
It makes me want to PUKE when I hear an infanticide supporting politicians talking about the evils of racism or slavery or "The" holocaust.
P-U-K-E.
Slaughtered babies are not seen in the same light as other victims of murder and genocide.
Would Pelosi and Biden be given communion if they had sponsored legislation legalizing rape?
Why or why not? The baby and the rape victim are violated in exactly the same sense.
Would they receive communion if they had removed all laws against murder in the US?
Why or why not?
Do open, unrepentant homosexuals receive communion?
Why or why not?
Why or why not?
What is sin?
What did the Pope say?
Vice President Joe Biden and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, both strong pro-choice advocates, took communion during the papal mass Tuesday in Rome, according to a pool report.
The move could potentially reignite a passionate debate about the propriety of participating in the ritual without fully abiding the Catholic Church's teachings.
Pope Francis has said he is clearly against the practice, particularly by pro-choice politicians.
"We must adhere to ‘eucharistic coherence’, that is, be conscious that they cannot receive holy communion and at the same time act with deeds or words against the commandments, particularly when abortion, euthanasia, and other grave crimes against life and family are encouraged," he wrote in 2007. "This responsibility applies particularly to legislators, governors, and health professionals."
Ouch.
Was he in error when he said this in 2007?
He needs to recant this earlier statement, or act on it.
While I do appreciate the fact that the Pope says he is against pro-infanticide politicians receiving communion, I have to ask:
Was he in error when he said this in 2007?
He needs to recant this earlier statement, or act on it.
While I do appreciate the fact that the Pope says he is against pro-infanticide politicians receiving communion, I have to ask:
Since the Catholic church just gave Pelosi and Biden communion, what real value are the Pope's words? How is this empty threatening not like a mother who is afraid to discipline her child?
Come on, Rome.
I'm anathema (and therefore effectively damned) for beliving in sola fide, but you're fine with allowing Pelosi and Biden communion?
No excuses about "damning themselves." That's weak, and the RC church practices no such thing on a consistent basis. Even in (especially in?) RC theology, the Church is responsible for administering sacraments and church discipline, up to and including excommunication.
Question:
Could I walk into a Roman Catholic church as sola fide Christian and receive communion?
Why not? Why not let me "damn myself?"
The reasoning fails utterly, or is not, at the very least, applied consistently.
I would and could never be a part of a congregation that allowed an unrepentant mass-murderer to participate in communion- especially not one like Pelosi, who openly blasphemes in her support of the ongoing genocide of babies.
It is likely I am being impatient here. Hopefully, this will start an uproar and result in some concrete action. Having said that, I think that the RC church had better respond to this in a meaningful, concrete way, or risk becoming as practically impotent on the issue as is the GOP. I mean no disrespect to my RC friends, and I am unsure and ignorant of what can be done in the RC organization from the bottom-up, but surely this cannot stand as it is if the RC church is to maintain credibility on this issue.
Maybe, just maybe, this will drive real action. I still believe the Roman Catholic church could dramatically change the anti-infanticide fight worldwide by simply refusing communion to those who support and defend infanticide. This is serious business, and for all there is that I differ on with Rome, the plain fact is that the Roman Catholic church might just be the only formal, visible, recognized organization in the world that has any hope of slowing or stopping this holocaust. (And now I am perhaps in hot water with my protestant brothers, but facts are facts.)
We're talking about millions of lives here, and all it would require is for the RC church to stand upon its teachings. This will not end mothers' desires to kill their babies -only Christ conquers sin and death- but the political and real-world impact of denying communion or formal excommunication on all pro-infanticide politicians would be incalculable.
Abortion is murder, and today alone, thousands of lives will be lost.
Damn the political consequences. This is murder and genocide. Do you agree? Do you mean it?
Pope Francis is coming out thus far as the "humble" Pope, the poverty Pope. I don't really care about where he lived before, what he rode, or what Papal vestments he does or does not wear.
Are there any more humble and poor, defenseless and naked than the unborn? Is there any more dangerous, desperate, and oppressive prison than inside of the womb of an abortive mother?
What is true religion? What does God say it is?
Is the RC church willing to make itself lowly and humble in the eyes of the world -a laughing stock and a stumbling block in the eyes of the world- by taking a solid stance on this issue...or will it play the part of the mother in the store who never disciplines her children?
Step up, Rome. Really. Step up or step out.
Just stand on what you preach, and translate doctrine into deeds.
Until that happens, those people I have talked with about RC doctrine might as well take a breather.
I'm not interested in the RC Catechism until I see what fruit it bears on this situation.
That is one man's opinion, but:
Faith without works is dead.
That, friends, is the Word of God.
Ironically, shaming is the most effective method to change people's behavior.
ReplyDeleteIn all likelihood, that is also the likely reason traditionalists are forbidden to shame. Only the Only Ones may shame us.
Justin and PP,
ReplyDeleteI must hang my head in shame, My church has failed, the Vicar of Christ has clasped a serpent to his bosom. I can only say that yo have been proven right. I do not know what I and my Family will do as a result of this abomination, and can only take comfort in the assurances of the Lord that it would be lonely, walking with him.
Chris,
DeletePerhaps -and this is my fervent hope- this will be the beginning of something. Perhaps enough consciences will be pricked. Maybe enough people like you will be horrified and speak out. I do not know how a message like this would travel from the laypeople up in the RC church, but I pray that it does.
It looks like Catholic schools are failing in this area as well:
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/catholic-congressmen-who-support-abortion-educated-in-catholic-schools
(Yep, I peek across the Tiber once in a while.)
Chris, please don't take this as merely an attack on your church because I am a protestant. The other day I lit up a protestant church for its denial of the faith on the issue of homosexuality.
Compromise is everywhere, and it smells like...
SERPENT.
Chris,
DeleteI can help.
Could you please email me? rhology at gmail
Chris, I think the main thing about the Church of Rome and her followers is just that - people following the instructions of a hierarchy.
Delete(Bear in mind, I am a cradle Episcopalian and fought long and hard against the unchristian apostasy of my own branch of the church. We failed to save the institution but managed to save our souls in the process.)
The Protestant personality believes that power percolates from the bottom up, and that tyranny trickles down from the top. We believe this is Jesus' message to us as well, as he taught time and again that salvation is won by individual sinners who have full responsibility for their action as well as their brothers and neighbors. This means, those closest to them, not via remote control.
Rome on the other hand is the ecclesiastical remnant of the Roman Empire it seems, in which a distant "god on earth" (a Caesar figure) whose various commands and wishes are communicated down to the various classes until they hit the protelari and slave classes, who must obey without question.
Many have long noted that this is the exact model being imposed on America and it coincides with the ascendancy of practicing Roman Catholics into positions of authority.
I myself saw it in civil court, here in my native Pennsylvania. As we fought our Episcopalian diocese and its bishop, all once considered delegates if not straight employees of the parishes that selected them, RC judge after RC judge simply could not bring himself to understand that, in the Protestant Episcopalian world, the BISHOP is a creature of the Congregations. We lost every case on the judge's hangup that "your bishop is your superior officer and you must obey him!"
So ... all theology aside ... that is the basic, almost irreconcilable difference between Roman catholicism and Protestantism. Flavors of Protestantism are distinguished mainly by how much authority they are willing to cede to officials, CoE on the one extreme and Congregationalism at the other.
Bringing it back to notorious sinners and Holy Communion, I myself have seen RC priests attempt to withhold the Body and Blood from an unworthy communicant - only to be overruled by his bishop. The pew sitters merely do as they are told and go along with the program, except for the Jezebel strain that will have their birth control come hell or high water.
Anyway, that's how it appears to this member of the rump American civilization with something of an ecclesiastical point of view.
I hope this helps clarify our situation because it has direct effect on the rumpus about to begin.
This has already been explained . . . so at this point I have to ask you a question . . . do you wish you could have the Eucharist and communion? Forget the fact certain people hang themselves, and have no hope . . . I want to understand your anger about it. I have a friend who is Prot, and he gets mad about no being able to have communion too . . . so I have to wonder, and forgive me, if it is not about some other person and if it has to do with you? The Eucharist is not a joke, and like I mentioned before we give them all the rope they want to hang themselves, but how much rope do you want is what I ask now?
ReplyDeleteWyn
Wyn,
DeleteI had not intended this to go in this direction, but we can if you wish.
I personally want no part of communion in the Roman church. I am able to receive it perfectly well outside of that organization, I do not believe it is what Rome teaches, on and on. Yada yada.
You did not answer my questions in the article that address the "hang themselves" bit. Why not let a protestant walk into a RC church and take communion, Wyn? Why not? Why not let them "hang themselves," as you put it?
Why not let an unrepentant rapist have communion? Why excommunicate anyone, if they can "hang themselves?"
I have no anger over this, other than the blatant hypocrisy involved and the missed opportunity Rome has here to make a difference in a "general equity" struggle that involves far more people than just Rome and her adherents.
As far as Rome's doctrines and traditions, its sacraments, icons, priests, and popes, I have no interest. Who takes communion with Rome is, in and of itself, no concern of mine at all, and I have no desire to be in that number.
Rome vs. Geneva polemics was not my intent here, and I cannot believe that you are not seeing the contradiction between Rome's actions and its doctrine. between The Pope's very words and actions.
Wyn, the pope flat out said in 2007 that pro-infanticide political leaders SHOULD NOT receive communion. What am I missing?
The "let them hang themselves" explanation is not borne out by the actions of Rome in the past (the blood of my Scottish ancestors, among others, bears this out), nor is it logical or consistent.
Why do people go to confession? Why does Rome teach penance?
What is the purpose of Biblical Church discipline? Can you explain what it is?
All of this boils down to one simple fact.
The Romish church is playing the hypocrite here. You (and other RCs) talk about "damning themselves" and "hanging themselves," but this is plainly not the case for the vast majority of cases.
What would happen if I (or any other protestant) were to go in to the next mass at the local RC church and seek communion?
Would said protestant be given communion and be allowed to "hang himself?"
What if a murderer walked in to mass, claimed he was innocent of sinning in killing an innocent person, and demanded communion?
The problem here is that these genocidal politicians are not being treated as such, outside of proclamations and words.
So, in summary, no, I have no desire to share in Roman communion. Geneva is fine by me. I do have a desire to see this slaughter stopped. This isn't about Pelosi, or Biden, or Francis, or me, or you.
It's about 53 million dead human beings.
Pelosi and Biden are not merely "hanging themselves."
The RCs I know are furious over this, if pressed to be honest, and in private. They know.
Just so you know.
I apologize for the disjointed reply. It's late. Maybe I'll be organized in my thinking in the AM.
DeleteProbably not though.
Just so you know, I'd be just as incensed at a protestant denomination that allowed de facto baby-killers communion, or even fellowship, for that matter.
Justin,
ReplyDeleteI don't take it personally at all. I only commented because I wrongly defended the RCC in the last time you brought it up. There is no defense for this particular action,and like other Catholics you know, I'm furious to the point where I want fly to Rome and berate the pope, personally.
Your doctrinal differences don't bother me as such, I often tell my prot friends that I would rather have honest disagreement about doctrine and agreement on the importance of Jesus and the seriousness of sin than a superficial agreement about doctrine and disagreement about Jesus and sin.
China has slaughtered more than 300 million babies, India over a hundred million, the US over 50. We enlighted liberals have slaughtered half a billion human beings in the last few decades, any compromise with such Satanic evil cannot be approved of. Allowing those who commit such acts, or in any way help facilitate them cannot continue.
In all likelyhood Nancy Pelosi is going to burn in hell for eternity. Any Christian leader must telll her so, for both her sake and the sake of his own soul. Lastly there is the Scandal allowing unrepentant murderers of children into the body of the church. How can I tell my children to take the Faith seriously when the Pope doesn't?
No, my friend, your criticism was exactly right,and I am saddened that The Pope needs Fraternal correction from Calvinists in America.
Justin, I am in agreement regarding your postion regarding the blatant hypocrisy of the Roman Church, but would add a question, "What would you expect of the Church of Rome?" It is clearly, other than to Catholic's, a man made structure where they do man made rituals and enforce man made structures. Man is sinful and can be expected to make bad decisions when his butt is on the line.
ReplyDeleteIn this case, church leadership doesn't want to offend powerful people and therefore decides that their man made rule about who gets communion and who gets to decide who gets communion can be set aside "for the good of the church". You can justify just about anything in this context. In addition, if the Catholic church actually enforced their rules about communion I would wager a goodly portion of their church would be denied communion. (Said as a person who went to grew up in the Catholic Church and attended plenty of their fundraisers/beer bashes).
And to Anonymous -- just replying as an additional non-catholic voice, I attended a funeral mass for a friend recently and was offered communion if I wanted it. Based upon the trappings and strings attached, I declined and would likely never so partake in a Catholic Church. I take seriously and literally Once and for all for all and it is finished and believe that the Catholic doctrine go directly against the teaching of the Bible on this and other issues. I do believe that all who profess Jesus' name and love the Lord are my Christian brothers, but am no fan of that Church and its teachings.
Lifesite News has this:
ReplyDelete"Biden and Pelosi and other pro-abortion politicians have been thumbing their noses at church teaching for many years now. Even though it has been repeated ad infinitum that their behavior is contrary to Catholic teaching regarding the sanctity of human life from conception to natural death, they have continually presented themselves at the altar rail. They have never been denied the sacrament.
Politicians such as Biden and Pelosi have been stubborn and contumacious in their pro-abortion policies and in presenting themselves for reception of the Eucharist. They know that the American bishops, for the most part, prefer a “pastoral approach,” which means basically let’s talk to them and help them to see the error of their ways. It has not worked, and there is no indication that it will. The topic of this essay is proof enough! They also know that Catholic priests are instructed not to cause a scene on the Communion line and that the person be permitted to receive. Thus, they opt to take advantage of these charitable loopholes.
By the bishops refusing to take strong action, such as excommunication, politicians will continue their “in your face” attitude toward the church and her leaders. Such a failure will also continue to allow Catholics and people of good will to be scandalized. Even worse, it gives the impression that others may follow the behavior of wayward politicians without impunity. (And that other RCC clergy may follow the timid no-enforcement behavior of their hierarchical leadership).
Biden and Pelosi only did at the Vatican what they have been allowed to do at home."
Excerpted From: Here